. /../Feltyrion oddities...?/ 123
i haz title: speed-g-dof
written by Speeder on Feb 16, 2010 18:46
Neuzd said:
So this poses some quite interesting questions like, where is the last star generated by the algorithm? Is there actually a last star?
Neuzud questions remembered me of NAN LY again...

There was not an "edge" where you could not see any more stars?

[EDIT by neuzd]
Split, moved and edited a quote to my message you were referencing.
└> last changed by Neuzd on February 17, 2010 at 01:17
r'lyeh sweet r'lyeh
written by Neuzd on Feb 16, 2010 19:03
Speeder said:
There was not an "edge" where you could not see any more stars?
My personal experience is more like systems distribution gets dimmer and dimmer until there is nothing more than void.

The real problem of the extension of the galaxy is most probably related to how the program handles very big numbers.
My idea (but it's pure speculation) is that at parsis over the limit of the C++ double datatype you may experience a situation similar to +NAN LY.

I also must admit I don't understand how values (and integers even more) are represented in a C++ double and so I don't know if what I'm saying is garbage or not : P

I know why I'm saying it though. Because if there's a "physical" limit to the value the datatypes can hold than those are the real limits of Feltyrion, and so things get practical and you can then make a reason of numbers.
i haz title: speed-g-dof
written by Speeder on Feb 16, 2010 19:51
There are stars in +NAN LY?
sumting need doing?
written by Lightning4 on Feb 16, 2010 19:52
I... don't think so? I seem to recall it being described as a black void, and pictures of it showing nothing but cold blackness.
r'lyeh sweet r'lyeh
written by Neuzd on Feb 16, 2010 20:02
I don't remember exactly the circumstances when entering + NAN LY. Anyway Skinnymon posted instructions and supplied a current.bin to easily reach the location.

The ID of +NAN LY makes it an S00, but I'm not sure of what is at -25,712; -15,026; -433,075, and even if there's a planetless S00 there, I don't believe it's the spot were Skinnymon actually was when he named the system.

Another singular "place" is Westos.
But really, these systems are oddities and it's pretty difficult trying to explain them.
I personally like the mystery around those labels.
i haz title: speed-g-dof
written by Speeder on Feb 16, 2010 22:47
Huh... Now I am curious, what is Westos?
written by Eurysilas on Feb 17, 2010 00:23
OK, this is going to sound asinine, but what was +NAN LY? Further more, what does "+NAN LY" even MEAN?

And I've never even heard of "Westos". Mind shedding some illumination?

I was always under the impression Noctis produced only a certain number of Systems, too.
i haz title: speed-g-dof
written by Speeder on Feb 17, 2010 00:48
NAN mean "Not A Number"

LY is the distance measure (Light Year? I don't remember...)

+NAN LY is when you manage somehow fly to "positive not a number" and I have no idea on how they did it, and I never went there myself, it is like a legendary place...

Now Westos I never heard too...

Also Noctis have some behavior that not even Alex or everyone that read the entire code can predict. And that is actually the fun of Noctis (finding new stuff... Like when they found a planet with ruins that disappeared a certain time of the day...)
krasnyj bibliotekar
written by Serpens on Feb 17, 2010 00:54
I can't really tell any really concrete knowledge about +NAN L.Y. or Westos, but how about separating a part of this thread and moving the result to the general Noctis forum? It went really off-topic.

Also, I don't remember if anything like Noctis knowledgebase/encyclopedia exists. If not, creating one could be an interesting idea. Hmmm...
r'lyeh sweet r'lyeh
written by Neuzd on Feb 17, 2010 01:11
I don't know the origins of Westos. But because of its very unique ID it behave in starnge ways.
If I'm not mistaken, it may appear when going way over the rim of the galaxy.
I think in one of these occasions I could locate a target labeled Westos in a couple of points in the black void, and both were at ridiculously high distances.

The note about it don't help either, because it belongs to another object. My guess is that it was in some way "corrupted" while it was being saved, rather than during the outbox/inbox (and all that's in between) operations.
written by Eurysilas on Feb 17, 2010 01:24
Speeder said:
...Noctis have some behavior that not even Alex or everyone that read the entire code can predict.
......0-0

Um....Noctis is a program. Programs are entirely driven by concrete rules. How does that leave room for anything "unpredictable"?

Put another way: A program is nothing more than a sequence of electronic switches. 0 or 1, on or off. How then is it any more unpredictable than a series of millions of light switches?

In other words, I don't doubt you in practice, just in technical terms. Theoretically, anybody who has studied all source code involved (Noctis, C++, the OS, etc.) SHOULD be able to predict what they'd find in every single system before even completing a Vimana jump. Now, it would take a very long time to pull this off (even if you had the aid of something other than pure memory), possibly longer than an average human lifespan, but I think it IS possible (though I'd appreciate some weigh-ins from fellow formers).

Speeder said:
...Like when they found a planet with ruins that disappeared a certain time of the day...
Now, see, that's just TRIPPY.
r'lyeh sweet r'lyeh
written by Neuzd on Feb 17, 2010 02:02
There are several ways why a program can react unpredictably, and they can be either intentional, unintentional, or even expected.

In the case of Noctis, my guess is that Alex had to "force" the compiler to do difficult or unusual things. And probably he had to simplify some algorithms to balance the performance needings.

Going even more specifically the star recognition algorithm is not very refined, and this has caused entities like the grid stars and other oddities that we've been collectively calling CORELs.
Examples of COREL stars are BLANCO EMPTY (planetless grid), and KAHDEON ALPHA (planetful non-grid).
What happens is that these labels are found in different places in the galaxy.

Of course this was not an intentional feature, and if Alex expected some weirdness from his code, he could also have thought that these cases would have been so rare that no one would have ever noticed. But the stardrifters did anyway...
i do my own stun-- avatars
written by Albeyamakiir on Feb 17, 2010 02:18
When it comes to rare glitches in games, no matter how obscure you think they are, players will always eventually find them, given enough interest (even if there is only one player).
r'lyeh sweet r'lyeh
written by Neuzd on Feb 17, 2010 10:58
Serpens said:
Also, I don't remember if anything like Noctis knowledgebase/encyclopedia exists. If not, creating one could be an interesting idea. Hmmm...
The Articles section on GOESXNET was supposed to cover part of what you're suggesting.
But it didn't have any success.
absent more than alex
written by Shadowlord on Feb 18, 2010 00:25
Eurysilas said:
Um....Noctis is a program. Programs are entirely driven by concrete rules. How does that leave room for anything "unpredictable"?

Put another way: A program is nothing more than a sequence of electronic switches. 0 or 1, on or off. How then is it any more unpredictable than a series of millions of light switches?
Noctis had all manner of buffer overflows and underflows in it, and DOS doesn't prevent those from writing into other variables or arrays. Thus, unexpected and unpredictable behaviors occur. (Windows goes OMGWTFBBQGRASS and throws an exception, which the user sees as the program crashing)

I fixed them in NICE, and in the windows port, although I don't know if the fixes were backported into NIV+ - some of them may have changed world generation slightly.

Reaching +NAN LY was the result of a bug, one that I fixed in NICE. Specifically:
NICE fixes list said:
When you 'set local target', if you typed in a number above 127, it would wrap around to become a number -128 to 127. If this number was below 0, then NIV would accept the target, though it would be a *nonexistant* target, and NIV would think it is +NAN LY distant. If it DIDN'T crash, and you then tried to fly to the planet, you would wind up in a pocket universe without stars, with no way to return to the galaxy. Planet numbers above 127 now correctly return "NOT EXTANT" in NICE. Furthermore, if you have gotten yourself trapped in a pocket universe, you should now be able to get OUT of it, by setting your target to parsis (or any system, if you use the nearby-system-finder tool), and engaging the vimana drive. If you're in +NAN LY land, if you engage vimana to a +NAN distant target, NIV will move you directly to the coordinates you specified (Actually, it will put you near them and will use vimana to go the rest of the way).
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